The
short answer is that I’m not really sure I know. That may sound like a strange statement from someone that worked
with him for so many years, spent so much time in his home, and knew him since
I was a child. He was secretive. He would never tell you more than he had
to. He was very private. So was his wife. She was from France, and still had family in Paris.
At home,
Elie and his wife M.K. spoke French almost exclusively. When he was speaking to relatives on the
phone, it was usually in Hebrew. Elie
spoke a number of languages fluently.
He never spoke to me about his deceased son. Never. He almost never
spoke about his other son, J.K., whose illness was the impetus for Elie
starting the Registry.
My
Father told me that Elie Katz was born in Egypt, and lived in Israel at some
point in his life. He was supposedly a
pilot in the Israeli Air Force, although he never talked about that with
me. His obituary in the Bergen Record (Hackensack,
Bergen County, NJ) on August 18th, 2003, mentioned that he was also
in the British Air Force, but whether that service was connected to Israel is
unclear to me. I believe he also lived
in France at some point, and no doubt that is how he met his wife. He claimed to have several doctorate
degrees, said he was a nuclear physicist, used the initials “PhD, D.Sc” after
his name on all printed material, and insisted that his employees refer to him
as Doctor Katz. He never told me where
he went to school, and I never asked.
He never had any diplomas displayed in his office. We never had any discussions about nuclear
physics. Because he was running a medical
registry, many people incorrectly assumed he was a medical doctor when he was
introduced to them as Dr. Katz, but he never claimed to have any medical
training. Over the years, many of the
employees at the Registry, as well as other persons, asked me about his
credentials. I could not provide any answers.
Prior to
starting the Registry, I believe he was in some type of business that involved
selling electronics or communications equipment to foreign countries. This company, or one of his businesses, was
called “Scan-Rate, Ltd.” He had once
told me that he had set up much of the telephone system in one of the countries
in the Middle East, perhaps Saudi Arabia, if I recall correctly. And of course, as I mentioned earlier, he
was a salesman for the same New York City company that my father worked for
when I was a child. Other than that, I
know nothing about his past. Because of
his foreign language proficiency, his international background, his secrecy,
and his age, in relationship to the timeline of World War II, I’ve often
wondered if he might have been a former spy, but I never asked him. I think he would have made a very good
spy. You never know.
Elie Katz screamed. He screamed at everyone (but never at his wife). Employees. Telephone operators. Secretaries. Deliverymen. People at other companies we dealt with. Complete strangers. Everyone. Even Norma. Pity the poor receptionist that would put him on hold. Even I was not immune. Only, in my case, because I had done so much for him and the Registry, I felt very comfortable returning his fire, or in some cases ignoring him. I’ve often told people that Elie did not really consider the day to have started until he had his first fight of the morning with me. I truly believe he enjoyed it. Sort of like a sport, I guess. I think most people were taken aback by him. He intimidated many people, including his own employees. I believe his inability to intimidate me frustrated him. I can’t tell you how many times I heard anecdotal reports of his behavior from people at other companies we dealt with. This served as validation for me. At least I knew I wasn’t imagining it. It’s rude. It’s abusive. It’s a trait that helped him build a successful organization, but at what cost? I’ve never bullied people. I simply don’t have that capacity within me to treat people the way Elie did, and I’d be too worried about how I would be viewed by others for me to do so. I’m sure I wouldn’t have had as much success as Elie in creating the Registry if I were in his shoes, mostly because I consider myself to be pretty shy, although my coworkers might not agree with that self-assessment. I wouldn’t have been able to talk to people the way he did, or to approach complete strangers and ask for things the way he did. Perhaps it takes traits like his to build successful organizations. I would like to think that being successful and having respect for others are not mutually exclusive.
In
my opinion, Elie Katz was a contradiction.
(Not to mention that he was a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an
enigma.) In some ways, he was very
generous to his employees. Unlike most
companies I’m aware of, everyone at the Registry enjoyed little perks that made
working there a little nicer. There
were no restrictions placed on the telephones, so if you had to make a personal
call, there was no problem (that is, if having your calls subject to Elie’s
eavesdropping didn’t bother you). You
didn’t need a code or a key to use the Xerox machine. There was a kitchen for the employees to use. There was even unlimited free coffee. When everyone got their own e-mail address,
there were no restrictions on it’s use, and people took advantage of that. On workdays preceding a holiday, the office
would generally close early. The
control freak in Elie Katz would NEVER announce the early closing until the day
in question. Sometimes it was not
announced until a few minutes before the office closed. But I guess time off is time off. Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.
On the
other hand, Elie struck me as terribly rude, often crude, and having contempt
for nearly everyone. Some things he
would say to me privately about some of the other employees shocked me. I suspect he had the same contempt for me
also. I guess nobody is perfect.
Elie
Katz’s nerve (or more precisely, his chutzpah)
never ceased to amaze me. He could pick
up the phone, call a company he never dealt with before, ask to speak to the
C.E.O., and tell them (if he got through) that he needed this or that for the
Registry. Most of the time, you don’t
get anywhere with that approach. Many
large corporations that have formal corporate contribution programs that
require grant applications to be submitted.
Many have a very narrow definition of the types of organizations and
causes that they will support.
Sometimes, if your call does get transferred to the CEO’s office, and
their secretary is away from her desk at that moment, you might get lucky. Perhaps that’s what happened when Elie made
some calls to ask for computer donations, although he said he knew the head of
Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC), so who knows. I thought that DEC was an exceptional corporation, and I still
mourn their demise.
They were based in Maynard, Massachusetts, and were a major force in the computer business, with their line of midrange VAX machines, and before that with their PDP line of computers. As I mentioned, DEC eventually succumbed and became part of Compaq Computer, which eventually succumbed and became part of Hewlett Packard. (Reminds me of a story about a little fish.) The head of Digital Equipment was Ken Olsen, a fellow who, as I’ve read, didn’t believe that personal computers were going to become a factor in the computer business. But he ran a company with a great corporate conscience. When Elie called them around 1989, and said he needed a donation of computer equipment, they said YES, and gave us several PCs, monitors, printers, and some other equipment. The DEC Personal Computers they donated were in fact Tandy (aka Radio Shack) machines that Tandy was manufacturing for DEC with the Digital Equipment nameplate on the outside of the computer. Open up the case, and everything inside said Tandy. Very well built machines, actually. They were Intel 80386-based computers that came with a DEC branded version of MS-DOS. Two years later, as the Registry grew and moved to a larger office, Elie asked them for additional machines. They gave the Registry an equipment grant to spend on whatever DEC hardware and software we needed. We got several 486-based PCs, networking hardware, a DEC file server for our network, monitors, additional laser printers and an uninterruptible power supply (UPS). The DEC laser printers were actually nearly identical to HP Laserjet IIID printers, and were made for Digital Equipment by Canon, who also built the Laserjets for Hewlett Packard. I think there’s only a couple of companies actually making this stuff, but they slap different nameplates on the outside for each company they are selling them to. Most computer hardware is coming from China now, but the Canon printers were made in Japan by Canon, for DEC. As I said, Elie had a lot of nerve, but I guess that’s part of the reason he was able to get a lot of the things he wanted. That, and good people like those at Digital Equipment Corporation.
Because of the DEC donations, we were able to
set up a local area network (LAN) in the office, which allowed all of our
employees to have their own computers, and to have access to the Registry’s
Donor file simultaneously. Other
companies, including Novell and WordPerfect also donated software.
In the
mid-1990’s, we wanted to set up a document imaging system that would allow us
to have access to our rapidly growing collection of paper files via our local
area network. Once again, Elie talked
several companies into donating the computer hardware and software for the
project, including Bell & Howell, Panasonic, Cornerstone, Kofax, and
several others. He got a Boston area
company named Intelligent Document Processing (IDP) to build a system out of
the parts that were donated, and write the custom software we needed. For reasons I don’t completely understand,
the project died at a certain point. I
think IDP underestimated the amount of work that would be necessary to
implement our system, and wanted the Registry to start paying for the work at
some point. The project was abandoned
and the equipment sat unused. This was
a major disappointment to me because of the equipment and time that was
invested in the project. We never did
computerize our filing system.
Elie
installed a closed circuit T.V. camera outside his office door, and had the
monitor next to his desk in his office.
The miniature camera was disguised as a smoke detector, but there was
never any attempt to conceal the fact that he had the system installed, and
everybody in the office knew it was there.
Perfectly legal, and I never had a problem with it being there. In fact, except for the hallway outside his
door, he could not see much of the office on his monitor anyway. I think he
just wanted an early warning system that would alert him of people outside his
door. Maybe it was because the camera
was disguised, or perhaps it was a result of the atmosphere that Elie instilled
among the staff, but many of the employees were absolutely convinced that he
had cameras hidden around the office and was observing them from inside his
office, or even from his home when he wasn’t in the office. Because of the paranoia this created among
the employees, I believe that if you feel you must install a surveillance
system in the workplace, you should use undisguised cameras, and put them in plain
sight. Otherwise, every smoke detector,
fire sprinkler, exit sign, and emergency light becomes suspect.
Another practice that I think was ill advised was the monitoring of employees phone calls, or at least the way it was handled. Again, I don’t believe there was anything illegal about the practice, quite to the contrary. I believe the courts have ruled that employers have the right to monitor phones, e-mail and Internet use and other activities that occur in the workplace and while using company facilities. Everybody at the Registry knew he could and did listen in on their calls, but that doesn’t mean they liked it. Just make one personal call too many, or say something that Elie did not approve of to someone, and the screaming followed almost immediately. Not the way to gain the trust and respect of your employees, in my opinion. Elie felt it was his company and he could do what he wanted. If you didn’t like it, work someplace else. What a fantastic attitude. How unfortunate.
In 1997, I got my first cellphone. It was my personal phone, not one provided
by the Registry. I’ve never had a
pager. Soon afterwards, I gave two of
the managers in the office my cellphone number with the stipulation that they
not share it with the rest of the office, and under no circumstances was Elie
to know about it’s existence. I wanted
to make it easier to be reached in an emergency, if I was out of the office. Paper jams in the Xerox machine, or a
printer that says “toner low” does not constitute an emergency. If he knew that I had a cellphone, I feared
it would give Elie another way to make my life miserable. Within a day or two, everyone in the office
had my cellphone number stuck on their computers or on a Post-It note tacked to
their phones. Rule of thumb: If you want it to remain a secret, tell
nobody. Tell your dog if you must tell
someone, because he won’t repeat it.
This rule also applies to secret family recipes for baked beans.
I felt that my concerns about Elie finding out about my cellphone were well founded. Both prior to becoming a paid employee and afterwards, I was subjected to unrelenting phone calls or messages on my home answering machine. When I wasn’t in the office, it seemed that Elie wanted to be sure he was still controlling my life. Most of the time, it was about nonsense, or at the very least, things that could wait until the next day. This went on from 7:00 A.M. to Midnight, seven days a week, including Saturdays, Sundays and holidays. I was generally safe when he was asleep, but even then, there were no guarantees. On a few occasions, he would call me in the middle of the night if he couldn’t sleep. I guess he assumed I wasn’t sleeping either, or he didn’t care. And God forbid I did not return his messages within a few minutes. There were often a half-dozen messages from Elie stacked up on my answering machine, all left within a few minutes of each other, and each one louder than the last. Legally, if I wasn’t an employee, I think this would constitute harassment, but I put up with it. Big mistake. In my opinion, Elie was a control freak of the first order. I think a lot of my behavior over the time I worked for him was a conscious effort by me to prevent him from thinking he had succeeded in controlling me, but I should have made it absolutely clear that I wouldn’t put up with it. I regret not having taken a stand and putting him in his place. If you find yourself subjected to this type of behavior, put your foot down.
I doubt he ever found out about my cellphone until I mentioned it to him during our last conversation, shortly before his death. I was certain that if he knew about it, I might as well throw my phone into the trash.
The Registry quickly outgrew it’s small
office in the Church, and in 1991, moved to an office building a few miles
away, in River Edge, New Jersey. We
expanded several times in the early 1990’s, taking more office space, hiring
new employees, and opening several “satellite” offices in Philadelphia, Boston,
and Buffalo, N.Y. I think we had about
18 employees at our peak. I even got my
own office, right next to Elie’s.
Probably so he could keep an eye on me.
Our building was by no means a luxury office building. In fact, some
things about it were pretty crummy, but it was not unlike most other commercial
office space in the area.
Unless you’ve ever leased office space,
it’s probably never dawned on you just how expensive it can be, at least in the
New York/New Jersey metropolitan area.
In the first ten years in River Edge, we spent about $1 million just on
rent, and that doesn’t even include our other offices. Perhaps it would have made more sense to buy
our own building or space in a condominium building and take out a
mortgage. At least you build
equity. (More about equity,
later.) I suggested this idea several
times over the years, but nothing was ever done other than a half-hearted
effort to look for less expensive space around 2000 or 2001 when our lease was
up for renewal. The Registry was
eventually moved out of River Edge by the Blood Center.
A word about expenses… Many people just don’t get it. Yes, we were a charitable organization, and
yes we (supposedly) existed to help people who need to find a bone marrow
donor, but running an office is expensive.
Notwithstanding the corporate and private contributions and NMDP funding
that the Registry received over the years, it costs a lot of money to
operate. Salaries, rent, office
supplies, laboratory testing, insurance, telephones, postage, printing, and
many other expenses really add up. One
way we had to recoup some of these expenses was to ask families for whom we
conducted donor drives to guarantee payment for each donor we tested, if other
funding (ie: NMDP funding) was not available to pay for the testing. Some families and groups we worked with were
indignant when they learned that we were charging more to test each donor than
what we actually paid for the lab work.
That’s an altruistic view of the world.
The truth is that someone has to pay the expenses, or we (just as any
organization) would cease to exist in short order. The best things in life may be free, but the necessities can be
quite expensive.
On the other hand, I feel that the
six-figure salaries paid to Elie and to his successor were excessive. Perfectly acceptable if we were a profitable
public corporation, but in my view, out of line with the size and mission of
the Registry, and the source of it’s funding.
A good part of our funding was tax-deductible contributions, many from
individuals donating $10 or $20 apiece in response to our fundraising appeals.
There have been so many scandals in the
news over the last few years regarding charities that seem to exist for the
sole purpose of making their executives wealthy, that I think it’s incumbent
for all charitable organizations to ensure their practices are completely above
reproach. I am not implying that
anything illegal or unusual took place here, quite to the contrary. It’s was probably no different than at most
charities in the United States.
Overwhelmingly, the money spent by the Registry was spent wisely, and many families were helped because of
us. But how many of the individuals
that supported the Registry would have written those checks if they knew how much
Elie Katz was being paid, or what eventually happened to much of our funds?
Unlike some charities where just pennies
of each dollar of their donations actually get spent on the things they
supposedly exist for, the Registry was probably one of the best examples you
could find as far as how we spent our money, and a model for other non-profits. I’m proud of that, but there were
exceptions...
For most of the time since the Registry
was founded, Elie had a leased car that was paid for by the Registry. No problem there. The fact is that he would occasionally travel on Registry business,
and having a company car seems like a reasonable thing, maybe even a
necessity. But was it necessary to
lease a luxury vehicle? Wouldn’t a Ford
Taurus or a Buick Regal have sufficed?
Chevrolet Caprices and Impalas are nice solid cars. Was a Lincoln Continental necessary? Was there any fiscal oversight? Isn’t that the fiduciary responsibility of
the Board of Directors?
Hummm. The Board…
I
believe it is a legal requirement that non-profit organizations have a board of
directors, and that these board members conduct at least one meeting a
year. At the Registry, during Elie
Katz’s tenure, these annual meetings took the form of dinners at local
restaurants with the board meeting taking place immediately beforehand or
afterwards. Very nice I thought, and a
small token of appreciation to the individuals who volunteered as board
members. I think it was partially a
reward for the work I had done for the Registry, perhaps it was also because
Elie valued my input, but for whatever reason, he would invite me to the
dinners and Board meetings. I was never
a member of the Board, and I did not have a vote on the matters that came
before the board.
When Elie Katz left the day-to-day management of the Registry, and I.S. became our C.E.O. in 1997 (see part III), I.S. held the board meetings either in our office or at St. Josephs Hospital. I was never invited to the meetings during his tenure, and when I expressed an interest in attending, I.S. told me I was not welcome. Perhaps he was afraid of me opening my mouth. Besides it being, in my opinion, a bad decision to not encourage (or even require) managers to attend the board meetings, I think prohibiting or discouraging attendance by anyone, employee or not, speaks to a larger problem with an organization’s governance. I’m not certain if this practice would be legal if I of anyone else challenged it, but I doubt it.
I’ve read a lot about the fact that many Boards of Directors are merely window dressing, and that in many cases, people sit on Boards simply for the prestige. Elie’s board was comprised solely, I believe, of Elie’s personal and business acquaintances, as well as his wife and son. Two of the board members (prior to our “affiliation” with St. Josephs) were in the medical profession. What always surprised me was what appeared to me to be the total lack of oversight exercised by the board. It seemed to me that pretty much without exception, anything Elie desired was approved without so much as a single dissenting comment. In my opinion, the Board meetings were little more than a “rubber stamp” for Elie’s wishes, right up to the votes they cast regarding the dissolution of the Foundation and the disposition of it’s assets. (In fact the final vote cast by the Board was done without a formal meeting. The votes were submitted by fax.) I have absolutely nothing against any of the former Board members, but I do think the system is flawed. Perhaps there needs to be some mechanism put in place by the government to ensure that charities are indeed governed by an independent Board of Directors that truly exert some meaningful influence over the operation and the direction of the organizations they are supposed to govern. The executives running the charity should be answerable to the Board, and not vice versa, as the situation appeared to me. Again, I doubt that this is an isolated case, but it’s the one I’ve had the opportunity to witness, and these are the conclusions I’ve drawn from it. I recommend the reader refer to a paper on the subject by SEC Commissioner Harvey Goldschmid, entitled “The Fiduciary Duties Of Nonprofit Directors And Officers”.
I am aware
of just one instance of one of Elie’s board members dissenting about
something. It involved a board member
that I believe was an accountant. He
was quickly replaced.
Many persons reading this were probably born
after the United States involvement in Vietnam. It is interesting to note that there is actually a very important
connection between Vietnam, U.S. bone marrow registries and the National Marrow Donor Program.
The chief of U.S. Naval operations in Vietnam
from 1970 thru 1974 was Admiral Elmo R. Zumwalt, Jr. His son, Elmo R. Zumwalt, III, was a young Naval Lieutenant who
also served in Vietnam. After serving
in Vietnam, the younger Zumwalt developed, and died from multiple forms of
cancer that his father believed were caused by his exposure to Agent Orange,
the defoliant he had ordered the use of.
No doubt because of his role in authorizing
the use of Agent Orange and it’s link to his son’s illness, Admiral Zumwalt
became involved in the National Marrow Donor Program, serving as it’s
Chairman. There is another link between
marrow donor registries and the U.S. Military.
Another reason the government has provided so much financial support to
the NMDP is because they believe that in the event of nuclear war or accident,
where large numbers of troops or civilians are exposed to radiation, having an
existing pool of HLA-typed marrow donors available that can be identified
quickly will save lives. A scary thing
to think about, but apparently something that has been given a great amount of
consideration by the government.
Later on, Admiral Zumwalt started The Marrow Foundation, based in
Washington, D.C., to raise money for the NMDP.
Much of the government funds that support the NMDP and therefore, the
local donor registries around the country, are a direct result of the efforts
of Admiral Zumwalt. It was my honor to
meet Admiral Zumwalt in the early 1990’s when he attended a Dinner organized by
the Registry. Admiral Zumwalt died in
January, 2000.
(Admiral
Zumwalt wrote two autobiographical books. On Watch (1976)
recounts his Navy career and warns of the Soviet naval threat. My Father,
My Son (1986), co-authored with his late son, Elmo III, is an account
of his experiences in Vietnam, and his son's illness. The latter was also made into a for-television movie of the same
name by CBS.)
CLECs
are Competitive Local Exchange Carriers, companies
that compete with the “Baby Bells” (the remnants of the old Bell Telephone
System) for your telecommunications business.
Some go after residential customers, and some are only interested in
business customers. It’s a bit of a
joke really, since the CLECs have to lease facilities from the “incumbent” or
ILEC phone company, since they don’t have their own set of cables and telephone
poles running down your street. In this
area, Verizon is the ILEC. Speaking of
Verizon, don’t you just love the trend of the last few years of companies with
perfectly good, logical, very recognizable names (such as New York Telephone or
Bell Atlantic) abandoning their identities in favor of nonsensical names
invented by some PR firm. These silly
names give you absolutely no clue as to what business they are in, are usually
mispronounced by the uninformed, and can’t be found in any dictionary? Verizon??? (I originally thought it was
pronounced VERY-ZONE.) What is a
verizon? Is it animal, vegetable or
mineral? At least International
Business Machines is still IBM, and not Zyconq or Vazaxnt or Quevzx !!! I think XEROX was a pioneer in this name
game. I wonder if anyone has created a
website listing all the nonsensical company names that have been fabricated in
recent years. Oh, and where did the name EBAY come from ??? Anyway, I digress.
We started getting sales pitches from the CLECs around 1999 or 2000. The Registry signed an agreement with one of these companies, named Teligent, to provide our phone service. Teligent went belly-up before our lines were ever switched over to them. This, however, did not stop them from trying to collect money from the Registry. At least it gave the collection companies something to do. Is this country great, or what!!!
The next
CLEC through the door was someone named Conversent Communications. Why we signed an agreement with them is
somewhat of a mystery to me, although saving money probably had something to do
with it. They were brand new to the New
Jersey market, and had just built a brand new switching office in Hackensack,
New Jersey, not far from our office in River Edge. I think they used us as a guinea pig.
The morning our service was switched over to Conversent, our computer modems stopped working. Then our long distance service became intermittent or non-existent. At least our fax machines continued to work. Conversent technicians trying to solve our modem problems scratched their heads. Then the next group of technicians they sent over scratched their heads, too. This went on for weeks and weeks before they solved their problems. While I never did get an understandable explanation from Conversent as to what the problem was, I suspect it involved either the way they were doing analog to digital conversion in their switching office, or was caused by not providing enough bandwidth to each voice channel. We also let Conversent install a DSL line for broadband Internet. It took a week or two before they figured out why that line didn’t work. In fairness to Conversent, once they got all the gremlins out of their system, service was pretty reliable. I guess somebody had to be victim # 1, and it just happened to be us. We were pioneers. “Houston, Tranquility Base here…. Our modems are working.”
I wonder
if Teligent’s bill collectors are still wasting their time.
The NMDP
and it’s Donor Centers realize the need to disclose the risks
associated with undergoing testing, marrow donation, administration of drugs
such as anesthesia and Filgrastim, and other aspects of becoming a marrow or stem
cell donor. They are very conscientious
about making sure that there is informed consent by Donors in their program,
and I give them high marks for their efforts relating to Donor education and
advocacy.
Unfortunately, there are cases where organ donors have suffered injury
as a result of their agreeing to undergo harvesting of an organ or part of an
organ. These occurrences are quite
rare, but the risks are real. For instance,
there is a risk simply in being anesthetized, even for healthy
individuals. Donors have sustained
physical injury from mistakes made by physicians harvesting an organ. There may be risks to a donor’s health from
the administration of some drugs. I would
think there is even a risk to someone from just walking into a hospital. To be fair, and to put it in context, all
types of organ donors face some risk related to donating an organ or a part of
an organ. Some organ donors have died
as a result. Does that mean we should
not permit organ donations from living donors?
I don’t think so. But donors
must be completely informed of the risks so they can make the decision to donate
intelligently.
The
people that sign up to be organ donors have to be some of the most selfless
people on the planet. I think it is a
tragedy if ANY of them are harmed as a result of their volunteering. I think that even more has to be done to
educate prospective donors of even the most remote possibility that they could
be injured as a result of their participation.
Indeed, I think some organ donors who sign a consent form would decline
to do so if they were given more complete information regarding the possible
risks.
Although
not health related, there is a disturbing problem I’ve seen many of the
Registry’s donors experience over the years, which I feel is totally avoidable,
and quite honestly an embarrassment.
When a donor has to go for further testing, such as is the case when one
of our donors has been identified as a potential match for a patient, they are
asked by the laboratory or hospital where they are directed to go for testing,
for their name, social security number and home address. Donors are never expected to pay for these
tests, but when for whatever reason, their bills are not paid promptly by the
donor center or NMDP, or perhaps through no fault on our part, these donors
received collection notices and threats from the facilities we sent them to, or
from a collection agency. Would YOU
agree to participate in the program if you knew it could negatively affect your
credit rating, or that you could become the subject of harassment by a
collection agency? I doubt it. Over the years, I’ve raised my concerns
about this problem with others at the Registry, but unfortunately, for some
donors, the problems persisted. Very
embarrassing for us, and no doubt, very disturbing to our donors.
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